I remember a time when visiting a website that opens a javacript dialog box asking for your name so the message “hi <name entered>” could be displayed was baulked at.
Why does signal want a phone number to register? Is there a better alternative?
as I see it, Signal tried to fit that privacy gap for a standard centralised messenger, if you think about it, that might have made it easier to non-tech-savvy people to adopt it (even if it was as a request from a contact), decentralisation is not remotely appealing to them
Signal is not perfect but we control its app, libre software. See SimpleX Chat.
First, we must defeat WhatsApp and Discord.
Why we need to defeat those first? We can go straight to SimpleX?
What SimpleX, Signal, or any app like this need first and foremost is traction, as new users generate more new users. One of Signal’s goals is usability (usually achieved by being simple, as in no complexity for the end user). In my opinion SimpleX lacks that. This is the same reason Signal needs a phone number: populating your contact list with users already on the platform
reason Signal needs a phone number: populating your contact list
Wrong, it is not optional.
First, we must defeat WhatsApp and Discord.
Do whatever works. Do not get derailed. Escaping WhatsApp and Discord, anti-libre software, has the highest return on investment.
Because the entire point of using communication programs is to communicate with people other than yourself.
You can go to Simplex (for sure a lot of people here already done it) but if only privacy nerds get to this place this is not a great solution. We (I’m talking about us using Lemmy and chatting on SimpleX) must convince people, starting by friends and family to stop using these fucking socials then at this point SimpleX will be considered as a viable alternative
Do not let this derail us. Escaping to libre software is the best return on investment.
Do not trust signal. Mosk advertised it on twitter.
Where does its software license stop us controlling it?
And then went back on it to advertise telegram lmao
Btw don’t use computers, Musk use them
Computers don’t steal your data for musk regime tho. Signal does. Telegram does not.
Spam prevention
And discovery.
It’s not an argument. Think about regular mobile numbers, are they preventing spams? No.
What kind of spam are you talking about
Scams, girls wanting to chat with you, incredible money opportunities…
Are you seeing spam on signal? Do you even know why spam is possible on phone networks and what the difference is between phone networks and the internet?
The point, I believe, wasn’t about spam but likely got derailed. It was probably about the phone number requirement being unnecessary. I’ll just add that even if it is, it’s a measure geared towards common users that often need to recover access to their accounts through means they’re already familiar with, as is a verification SMS. It’s not the safest nor the most private, but it’s easier to deal with for most people. Whoever wants something that doesn’t depend on a SIM or eSIM should try Briar and SimpleX. None of these will be a perfect solution for every single person though.
I don’t know what is spam for you, but when you get three message requests from three girls respectively named Tania, Clara and Ella that are contacting you about you carrier or your management skills, I call it spam.
The way that Signal integrates phone number is odd because it opens up the spam door. O understand why Signal use phone numbers this way (to make “normies” adopt Signal more easily like WhatsApp would do) but it not the best to kind of contaminate the network with the traditional cell network
Because Signal has a low user base. Why Spam on Signal, if you can reach everyone with an SMS?
in the end of the day, the end user needs an id. this is perfect for the everyday user, but obviously if you are writing anti regime articles, you might want to look around for more anonim apps.
We have to assume we are all writing anti regime articles … In the future
perfect for the everyday user
…because of course, they don’t need privacy, do they now. “Nothing to hide” and all that jazz.
(you will still need a phone number to sign up for Signal)
One of the design goals is that they don’t have a user database, so governments etc can’t knock down their door demanding anything. By using phone numbers your “contacts” are not on their servers but local on your phone.
But your phone number is, and thus every agency can get your full name and address and location.
Yes but only yours. That’s still better and only having to knock on one door to get everything.
If I’m the target, then this is enough.
You are not the only person using Signal.
and then every phone number on your phone.
This sounds like it’s a problem no matter what method of communication you use, unless you keep no address book and memorize everything.
Nope
That’s WRONG they have a Database of every Phone number registered to them and metadata like the last time they logged in. You send all your contacts numbers to signal so they can respond who is also using Signal.
During registration they want a phone number to send a verification code. I know I am me. They don’t need to verify that.
They do. Otherwise anyone can register with your phone number and start messaging as if they were you.
If you want more privacy you’d need something like Simplex.
They need to verify using a phone number because otherwise other people could sign up using your phone number and pretend to be you? What?
They can only sign up using your phone number if they do require a phone number. If they didn’t ask for a phone number then how would people sign up using your phone number?
Signal’s internal identifiers are, of course, not phone numbers. And you can download their server and host it without requiring phone numbers for registration. Just they simply can’t afford it, they need to prevent bots from registering and sending messages somehow. A group message is stored in Signal as many times as there are group members, for example.
… but why require numbers in the first place.
My conspiracy theory brain goes:
Its funded by the government.
Yes, the messages themselves are encrypted, but they don’t need that, they have access to all the useful metadata.
They can find everyone near the site of a protest (via cell tower data), then find their signal accounts, then see who they are contacting, potentially revealing who the the other protestors and protest organizers are.
And if you need access to the messages, they don’t need to crack the encryption, they could just send pegasus to your phone (and they already have you phone number to do so), and they’ll have access to every message.
Then they just find those other protestors, also send pegasus to their phones.
I mean, the Signal code is technically legit, they just used a side channel (zero day exploits) to gain access.
But this is just a theory, I don’t have any evidence supporting this hypothesis.
They don’t need Signal to do any of this though, so this doesn’t seem like a very plausible theory.
True, they don’t exact need signal. But the thing with exploits is that, once found, they would be patched and they can’t use the same exploit again. So they can’t just be sending everyone in the country Pegasus. That would make it easier for it to be detected.
So with Signal’s help, they have a easier time to select a few targets. They can find out who is using Signal, and correlate that with other data like being near a protest site. Then they only need to target a few Signal users, instead of like sending Pegasus to 5000 protestors, they could find out that everyone is talking to this “John Smith” person, then send pegasus to that user and obtain a lot info And since its only few users being infected, its less likely for the fact that the conversations are comprpmised to be known.
I mean, without requiring phone numbers for Signal, they would have a harder time knowing who is using Signal, and they would end up having to infect all 5000 phones in the protest area, which mean now its much more likely for the spyware to be detected. With infecting just a few of the organizers, their spying can remain undetected for a long time.
As for everyone else not using Signal, they are likely to be using unencrypted messaging, so its not even necessary to infect their phones.
Why can’t they send Pegasus to everyone?
If they can create a fund and invent Signal, they can just make Pegasus part of AOSP and have every manufacturer be forced to install it silently
They could, but again, its easier to detect.
But if we are already under the assumption that Pegasus is so sophisiticated that it’s un-detectable. Its possible all this privacy talk is futile and they already have access to every device, which means Graphene OS is also pointless.
I honestly don’t know. If you are planning any anti-government activities, the only way to be totally safe is to not carry a smartphone (and obviously wear a mask to conceal your identity and all that) and use One Time Pad encryption and deaddrops for communications.
Your theory sounds legit
Seems like a lot of unnecessary steps there
What are you doing to help others escape WhatsApp, anti-libre software?
Obviously Signal is the lesser evil, but don’t use Signal if you are planning a revolt is what I’m saying.
Put that at the start. This is c/privacy, not c/revolt.
Obviously Signal is the lesser evil, but don’t use Signal if you are planning a revolt is what I’m saying.
or if you’re the US’ secretary of defense and you’re going to bomb Houthis
🤷
🤣 Absolute shitshow lmfao. Signal is not approved for war communications, that was a security breach (not to mention, adding the journalist), and he risked jepardizing his entire mission.
But on the other hand, having such incompetent fascists is a good thing for the resistance.
This is what the UK police do with WhatsApp data. Even though they can’t read the messages, they do use the connections of messages to suspicious characters as evidence including date and times, which also puts these other people in the spotlight, opening further investigations.
The UK police can also use ‘stinger’ devices that are “fake” mobile data towers to intercept mobile communications.
If you want to be mainstream a) you can’t have spammers, scammers, and all the other scum of the earth and b) finding your contacts in the app HAVE TO be plug and play. Literally no normie will bother adding with usernames or whatever.
finding your contacts
Wrong, it is not optional, does not stop spam and the worst way to try.
Do not let this derail us. Escaping to libre software is the best return on investment.
Do not let this derail us.
Nothing is derailing you personally. Why are you repeating this to others?
Everything is a balancing act. Privacy, anonymity, and security aren’t the same things. They’re sometimes, and in some aspects always, difficult to achieve without compromising one of the other two.
When you add in the goal of quick, easy setup to make the service useful in the first place. Doesn’t matter how good the service is at the trinity if nobody is willing to use it. Signal just errs on security first, privacy second, anonymity third.
Bots. If it makes you feel better, you can disable other people finding you via phone number and just give them your username. All messages are private.
But the police request the meta data of all messages from your phone number that the company has and they’re required by law to give them it.
Secret sender stops any real amount of information about messages being connected to you
They can “request” it all day long. Signal doesn’t store them beyond the time needed to deliver to the end user device, and while (temporarily) stored, it’s encrypted in a way Signal’s service cannot read.
The phone carrier at least here in the US is required to store the call data for 18 months, according to the one that I use.
What does that have to do with Signal?
The claim is that Signal’s phone verification step doesn’t cause privacy problems because Signal (purportedly) doesn’t retain the phone numbers after verification. That claim is falsified because the phone carrier stores the call record even if Signal doesn’t. They store it because of the same law that makes them turn it over to Big Brother on demand. The phone verification step is, therefore, a privacy problem. Obviously there are similar issues with IP routing, but at least I can use a VPN with an endpoint in another country.
The “record” is a SMS verification code. All that will tell the government is that you registered for Signal, nothing else.
Telling the govt that you registered for Signal sounds like a bad failure as far as I’m concerned, e.g. if you are a user in a repressive regime. Do you think Trump would like to get his hands on a list of all the Signal users in the US? Probably yes. What would he do with the list? IDK but it has to be bad. So it should be an objective of Signal to make it impossible for anyone to create such a list.
Anyway, it sounds like Signal has wised up and is getting rid of the phone number requirement. I don’t understand why people here keep defending the misfeature. I’ve heard such things explained as “system justification” but I still don’t understand it. All of us make poor decisions all the time, but we should at least make some effort to recognize them, and fix them when possible.
No, that wasn’t the claim. Phone numbers are used for sign up, but the post’s OP was talking about messaging meta data. Messaging meta data doesn’t go through your carrier and is encrypted.
If you check the publication of signal’s cases where they had to hand out data, and in reverse the FBI leak that listed analysis of all messenger apps by what data they were able to acquire in most cases, Signal came out as one of the top options.
huh? so the phone number is encrypted in a way that can’t be read, but an sms is sent to the phone? … a separate company sends the text on behalf of signal? so that separate company logs the phone number, the timestamp and who knows what else.
Signal doesn’t use SMS anymore, and all messages are sent over encrypted Internet protocol. Any servers in between won’t see the phone number, it’s not needed to deliver the message, it’s using an IP address at that point and the entire message metadata is encrypted. Signal is the only one that can see the phone numbers, which they use to identify multiple clients as a single user and route messages accordingly.
What are you on about right now? I don’t mean that sarcastically, I really am wondering what your concern is. Are you concerned that because your phone number is associated with Signal that police will know you use Signal?
Signal doesn’t use SMS at all, once you have enrolled. The phone number is used to validate people and exclude bots, during registration. As others have noted, you can hide your number from other users, as well.
Its encrypted
Messages are e2e encrypted. Metadata is not encrypted.
People told you a few times to go look for yourself what Signal can give away. Its protocol descriptions are pretty understandable.
The whole bloody reason it’s always recommended is because it’s absolutely the best thing in terms of yes, encrypting metadata. It’s state of the art, level above that bullshit you’re thinking.
Unfortunately, that also means that hosting it takes lots of resources, which means they have to screen bots and mults somehow. Phone numbers are one way. Paid accounts are another.
Phone numbers are one way. Paid accounts are another.
Rubbish. How would this stop bots? Bots are created to make money. What makes you think creators don’t have a phone number, or be prepared to pay to spam.
One account per phone number versus infinity of accounts without.
signal accounts… signal accounts everywhere!
Phone numbers cost money, which means they’re not easy to create in bulk, and therefore banning or blocking spam numbers is much easier than if it was open sign up.
what? can you show a source? I think you mixed it up with Matrix
Yes it is. Signal isnt PGP email. A lot of work went into protecting metadata.
These are all the court orders Signal has complied to and details all the information they give up
https://signal.org/bigbrother/
TLDR; they only give the last time the account connected to Signal servers and the time of account registration or re-registration
You should go properly read the requests from law enforcement they have received and exactly what information it contains. It’s public. Then evaluate if it matters for yur threat model. Security doesn’t exist in a vaccum.
They implemented an alt method IIRC but you must go out of your way to search and find it. I just recall seeing a bunch of post headlines about using email or something like that a year so so back.
They send an initial SMS message that is a main expense and funded by some rich person and donations. I think that has some significance to encryption or something but I’m not sure of the details. I could be wrong on that one, it has been years since I read the details.
Your wrong, except the rich person part. That rich guy is the WhatsApp founder, who got the money by selling their users to Facebook.
thousands of threads on this topic since decades ago.
it’s an eternal debate (since signal has no plans to change)
just read the history and join the rest of us waiting for them to change. using signal before that change is completely optional. go ahead and don’t use it. no problem.
opening the discussion again is just tiring.
read the history
Is there a url for the history? Or for a good answer about the phone numbers? If the topic keeps recurring and the answers don’t satisfy people, that suggests that there is no good answer, and that there are possibly misaligned interests between Signal and its users.
don’t be like one of the now!now!now! types (i.e. OP) and treat every new discovery (personal first encounters with existing tech, situations) as the final nail in the coffin. there are other messengers available while waiting for signal to change.
just saying, acknowledge that many others have arrived at the same problem years before you and they are not your enemy. so yelling at the choir is counter productive.
opening the discussion again is just tiring.
so tiring that i opened it and read it, then typed a long response.
Fuck haterz, these are valid questions and there no answers.
Signal did its job. I am waiting for simplex to mature.
Is it possible to use a voip based SMS for registration?
Those are a little easier to get anonymously then physical sim cards.
Too many steps.
Despite this, escaping WhatsApp and Discord, anti-libre software, is more important.
Is there a quick explanation of what signal actually does? I don’t understand the need for a phone number either. Jami doesn’t ask for a phone number. It has other deficiencies that make me not want to use it, but those are technical rather than policy, more or less. Similarly, irc (I’m luddite enough to still be using it) doesn’t ask for a phone number either. So this is all suspicious. There are a bunch of other things like this too (Element, Matrix, etc.) that I haven’t looked into and tbh I don’t understand why they exist.
Signal is a messenger service. You can expire messages after a certain amount of time.
They ask for a phone number to limit bots. I used my Google voice number and it worked fine. I like Telegram which banned me after a day of use for using Google Voice.
I get that Signal is a messaging system (not sure if “messenger service” has a specific meaning). What I don’t understand is why I’d want to use it instead of any of the million others that are out there. I’ve never used Signal and don’t have the slightest clue about how it operates, but apparently it tries to mess with the contact list on your phone? That sounds bad. I use Nextcloud Chat sometimes and its web design is ugly, but it works ok and you can self-host it fairly easily. It doesn’t do anything with your phone contacts. Jami is distributed but (maybe unrelated) I often have trouble getting it to work at all.
It doesn’t “mess with your contacts”. You can choose to give contacts access if you wish to have secure contact discovery. Contacts are not uploaded.
It’s robustly encrypted and quantum secure, without metadata leaks like the sender of a message.
It’s recommended by Edward Snowden.
If you want to message someone, have the ability to verify there is no man in the middle attack, have perfect forward secrecy, very strong crypto, use open source software and still have all the conveniences of a modern message app, use signal.
Do you mean the client side is open source? What about the server? If you’re required to use Signal’s server, how do you know it’s not disclosing metadata? If you can self-host it, why the phone number?
The idea is you don’t need to trust the server
Messages sent don’t contain a readable sender field
Mobile numbers may not be necessary long term, architecture depends on accounts being created Witt phone numbers. Usernames were very recently introduced. Soon we may see requirement for phone number dropped, unless related to spam control
The wikipedia article looks informative and I will read through it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)
Is spam a serious problem on other messaging systems?
You trust the server if you don’t verify fingerprints. Signal makes that too difficult.
Sealed sender is a theater that you can enable but still have to trust Intel, aws and the signal server.
CONTACTS ARE UPLOADED
Robust encryption isn’t useful if you don’t verify the fingerprint and signal makes that not intuitively.
SIGNAL CLIENT HAS UNFREE SOFTWARE INCLUDED
Contacts are never uploaded
Hashes of some numbers are if you enable contact discovery
Verifying keys is easy, what are you talking about?
It’s not suspicious. It’s been talked about for years. People know exactly what the phone number is used for. Easy discoverability, quick and seamless onboarding of new users by providing a way to bootstrap their social graph, and it being very similar to the process of the other biggest player that people just understand. And spam prevention. The phones are not leaked or used for anything else. The other alternatives exist and you are welcome to onboard the people you want onto them if you think it’s simpler.
The code is open, if you don’t trust other people and can’t read the code to understand then hire someone you trust to validate the claims and assure you. But spreading FUD and saying it’s suspicious is not productive to anyone.
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I don’t understand what you mean about discoverability: is my presence on the network advertised to strangers and spammers? That doesn’t sound good. What does the onboarding process look like?
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You still haven’t said what Signal’s advantages are supposed to be over alternatives, though I can guess some (e.g. better/more crypto than irc has). Jami seems conceptually ok, but buggy in implementation. Nextcloud Talk works but is kind of clunky. Matrix is popular though I’ve never used it: is it the main alternative to Signal these days? I thought it was what all the hipsters had migrated to while luddites like me were still on irc. Jitsi Meet looks nice though again I haven’t explored it much. I’ve been puzzled for a long time that there is so much work in this area yet everything has deficiencies. Are there difficult problems to solve?
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If Signal’s code is open then of course I’d want to self-host the server. Can I do that? Does that get in the way of the onboarding process you mention? Where does the phone number come in, in that case? If I to use Signal’s server, that doesn’t sound so open, and normally there’s no way for me to verify that it’s running the same code that they claim.
I don’t see where I’m spreading FUD. Ignoring a question and calling it FUD doesn’t invalidate the question.
- Yes, kinda, if they have you in their contact books, they get a notification you joined.
Thanks. The more I think about it, the more this seems like outright evil behaviour on Signal’s part to pursue user growth, similar to Facebook etc. Imagine that you and your boss are in each other’s contacts for obvious work-related reasons. Do you really want Signal notifying your boss that you registered for Signal? For some of us it’s fine, but in general it seems like a terrible idea.
You can’t easily selfhost Signal. They engineered it purposefully to only run on Big Tech Clouds with specific Intel CPUs they put (too much) trust in.
Very interesting, thanks. Do you mean they use SGX (Intel’s buggy secure enclave feature)? Any idea what they use it for? If not SGX, do you know what the issue is? AMD Epyc processors have something similar but different, fwiw. If there is such highly secret info on the server though, that makes self-hosting even more important. It also makes the architecture suspect.
Yes SGX, they use it for sealed Sender, contact discovery and mobilecoin.
- You can easily migrate everyone from WhatsApp to Signal and they don’t have to exchange usernames as most people have the phonenumbers in their contacts. (This has massive drawbacks addressed somewhere else, one lesser known fact is that they would have to verify fingerprints anyway to be sure they are speaking to the right person an not a proxy. Instead of that they could also exchange username+fingerprint initially, like Simplex does it.)
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