It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
ITT: no one has an idea.
hint: class war. there’s a reason they are tightening the surveillance.
I keep my old smartphone precisely so I can install banking apps and other annoyances.
Feel free to track the burner phone that stays on the same location, turns on once a week, is got tape on the cameras and never uses the browser.
We are in war with big tech, why would anyone think they would just let us win without a fight.
Would “containerizing” GMS in Android ever be possible? Like it’s running in a docker instance, almost.
Graphene OS does something similar. It sandboxes GMS like any other app
Then why don’t GMS apps work?
GMS apps work fine. The only ones that don’t work are ones that act invasively enough to notice they are sandboxed and disable themselves.
Mostly bank apps. Which is irritating, since they all have mobile friendly websites that work fine without needing to know my location and everything else about my phone.
What I was envisioning was a more “open” sandbox that feels like an entire (but barebones) phone, an imprecise location, things like that. But with the rest of the phone secretly shut out.
That’s a pretty good description of what GrapheneOS does with the sandboxed Google services.
I have found that the only apps that don’t work well with Samdboxed Google services are ones that work hard to invasively probe their runtime environment.
Thwy usually fall into these three categories:
- Bank apps that do it “for my safety”. Nevermind that a website version exists for attackers to target without the same (dubious, invasive) “protections”.
- Streaming apps that do it “because this paid subscriber might be some kind of dark web pirate and we need to protect our content from being uploaded to the dark web one more time.”
- Apps whose developers are shitty at writing code for memory management. But GrapheneOS has good options to allow these to run, anyway.
Le Chat is just a frontend for Mistral. There are a ton of free web UIs one can use for chat instead, like (ironically) Google AI Studio, Deepseek, Z AI. Or openrouter if you’re willing to pay for a bit of privacy. Or kobold lite. Or your own self hosted Open Web UI instance.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
Someone rectnly crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Thanks, that might be a handy workaround.
Boop, source found.
Thanks!
I stopped going. Fuck it. Not giving in to their bullshit.
That’s how I’m feeling I will go after this concert since they already have my money.
The local folks probably deserve tye attendance more anyway. So many nepo babies…
It was the fees for me. Their CEO needs to be Luigi’d for leading a parasitic company that has made so many music venues go under.
I’ve been quietly boycotting them for over 13 years now, shortly after online scalpers started having their field day with their sites. It sucks not being able to go to any major shows but I have made myself compromise by going to small local shows only and it hasn’t been that bad.
Everyone votes with their wallets, so as long as people keep paying, they’ll keep making us jump through more and more hoops.
So messed up that they too are the scalpers. A band I liked put pressure on them and managed to catch them in their bullshit, but that is rare.
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. https://help.ticketmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/9786597785617-How-do-I-use-Mobile-Entry-tickets
Just go to the box office when you get there and present an ID that matches the name the tickets were purchased under. Depending on the venue, they will either print your ticket or text you a link that opens a page in your browser that can be scanned.
Everything I’ve read is that they only offer accommodations to people during time of purchase, and even then you’re basically at the mercy of the venue. I’m going to call them and see what I can do, but I don’t have high hopes.
Keep in mind GMS does not need to run as a system app. On GrapheneOS is does not.
At east for me only about 15% of my apps need GMS and I only run GMS in my private space which most of the time I lock.
So yes I do not like needing GMS but it is not so doom and gloom.
does it work on other roms?
Does what work? If you mean GMS sandboxing, that is ROM specific. Up to what the ROM supplier does.
Why would one need another ROM. GrapheneOS is one of the best. So is Google hardware in terms of lifetime cost, capability, and security. What other supplier gives 7 year support?
Generally with android it is best to choose the ROM and then the best hardware for it anyway. The best ROMs often have limited hardware support. There are not that many reasonable ROMs anyway. Nor are there many hardware choices that aupport most ROMs fully.
Why would one need another ROM
because it only runs on a very specific phone we can’t obtain in most of the planet
Google phones are pretty widely available in many countries not just the US. But sure good point, there are many exceptions too.
maybe many, but not most. grapheneos makes me saddened that added privacy now costs a premium, and it’s only accessible to a subset of people.
The big deal is how long a phone gets updates. If you divide Pixel a-series pricing by the 7 years of support, they are not that expensive.
What is expensive is buying a new phone everytime they go out of support. My old LG had maybe 1 year of updates when I got it years ago and it was a $250 phone. Still ran it for 6 years but most of that time had no updates which is not great.
My point is cost depends on how you measure it.
I can get 7 years of support from lineageos already, without having to pay a premium.
and then again:
it’s only accessible to a subset of people
you don’t seem to get we can’t buy it even if i wanted to pay a ridiculous price for it
Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these company’s would create their own AOSP fork.
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
If the goal is too swap one parasite for another, this is a valid strategy BUT
Custom ROM is the only proper solution, ideally GrapheneOS, if you actually care about security and privacy.
Xiaomi is terrible when it comes to locked bootloaders unfortunately.
.
Realistically, change your approach to how you use your phone.
A majority of apps are not actually apps. They are a web app packaged in an apk so they can get elevated permissions and more data. Dont download apps, instead just install them from your browser as the web app they are. This is far more secure and far less invasive as generally a web app is containerized, at least thats my understanding in regards to firefox.
Instead of google maps, explore the world of open source navigation apps. Osmand has worked great for me, and tends to provide better info so im not panic merging at the last second. Theres a lot of them out there, and google maps has stagnated for so long that many of them are caught up in features. While its not open source, ive sesn a lot of people praise Magic Earth as well.
Buy phones on the premise of being allowed to use a custom rom. As much as i dont want a pixel because it is google, graphene os is battle tested and much more secure than stock android. But theres also lineage OS, eOS, and a few others out there.
If you need google play services, containerize it. I keep all apps i dont want having special permissions on a work profile. Funnily, i also keep my work apps on that profile, so if google wants my works data then they can handle the lawsuit if something bad happens lol.
I think a lot of people have forgotten that phones are tiny computers. The only real difference is the cell network, but we already have devices that can use those networks that arent phones, so it isnt an exclusive feature to phones. Android can be forked, but also we can emulate android on linux and there are already linux phones out there. If we grow the linux space for phones, then we effectively lose nothing of value while gaining increased freedom. For now, change how you use your phone, and only download apps if you have no other choice.
Or just put your SIM card into a laptop running Linux and you’re good to go.
I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may just not be good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
- You can use those banks that work without google. I’ve found 2 in the Netherlands, for example. One of them stopped working a while ago, I’ve wrote about that to their support and had to discontinue, withdrawing all my funds using a Dutch procedure for full withdrawal from a bank. After half a year or so I’ve noticed they’ve fixed it and work without google again. I’ve returned as well (it’s convenient for me to have 2 banks). I’m sure as hell banks watch for their usage statistics and wouldn’t like seeing people leave their bank if it can be fixed with a simple reversal of whatever the dev team did lately.
- You could try Linux phones such as PinePhone to see which use cases can it already cover. 30%? 70%? 90%? You’ll know what to even wait for in the Linux landscape to be able to switch. You’ll get a bit of power or mental control if you acquire this knowledge.
- Funnily, you can expect some good news coming from all those fights between US and China, because that makes a LOT of devices ship without google services. And some people in your county (I assume it’s not China, otherwise you wouldn’t have these problems) may have phones bought there, so you won’t be alone when pushing for such changes.
.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if is there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank.
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Hi, I can add that Triodos works like a charm for me on a completely ungoogled /e/os And shoutout to @vas for actually telling banks and presumably other institutions that they need to be platform neutral or lose their custom. That’s my preferred way out of this mess. Goog luck ungoogling, everyone
Thanks! I’m on ING now and every time i look it up for ING i get conflicting answers, Probably because it differs for each country they operate in (and people don’t always specify). I’ll look into the other ones.
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
You can use andOTP if you want a FOSS app on Android. If you’re a hardcore no-Android-at-all user (or considering), you can use KeePassXC on the desktop. This kind of defeats the purpose of 2FA, but on the other hand people with KeePassXC tend to have strong passwords due to ease of their maintenance, so you don’t need 2FA as much to begin with.
TL&DR; use andOTP on Android or KeePassXC on Linux Desktop.
What puzzled me was that I had no option to input a TOTP. The website would only send me a notification through the Wise app to allow the login.
I have just discovered that the waiting screen on the website had a small, clickable text ‘Did not receive a notification?’ that leads to other options, including TOTP. That’s so much better!
Thank you, I would never have discovered this if you had not said that this was possible.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been doping it for years now. Works fine.
Comaps has been awesome for me
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
You can stop using Google and Apple… It’s that simple. But it seems that you, like many other, want their cake and eat it too…
Sure but what’s a viable alternative for normies? It would be simple if a viable alternative existed. For normies, I reiterate.
It’s to do the grass root movement, and get enough to demand it, for a provider to feel the need to expand their customer base that way…
Normies don’t care about that. They care about WhatsApp, Instagram and tiktoks.
Until they don’t… and please don’t call then normies, when they really are manipulated…
Normie is not an insult or derogatory. It just means “normal person”, who is usually not very tech savy.
Most Normies don’t care about privacy. They know, accept and are ok with their data being collected and sold in “free” services.
Some countries allow the corpos to lock your device down when you delete it, and they have collaborated with the providers to disallow Open Source OS alternatives like Lineage. The only way I know of is to get a Pixel, which is still owned by Google, and then I think only one provider allows the after market OS to function on network. For those of us entering a dictatorship gov, it really sucks.
Well, then there’s a market for someone to crack…
If only there was someone that could afford as much lobbying as Google and Apple, we would have another parasite that was just as bad. Lets just get CB radios. Maybe morse code. God, what a shit show. This country is so fucked.
I believe it depends more on people-power, than on their wealth. That’s why they spend so much money on lobbying - it’s a testament to how scared they are.
I dont know if that indicates that theyre scared, its just part of the maintenance cost of their empires
You don’t spend money on something that you don’t get profit from. That’s just plain logic. They know, if they don’t keep spending money here, some politician would end their monopoly.
Of course. Im just saying i dont believe theyre scared because they know they will continue to have more than enough money for lobbying. Its probably very cheap in comparison to what they get out if it. Any business has necessary maintenance costs
Quite a comfortable way to do this is with grapheneOS. That really gives you a choice. Can’t say much about each and every app, how they run. Although most of my usage hasn’t changed much with grapheneOS as I changed from gsm-free custom ROMs. Works quite good with a nextcloud.
how is that even possible?
How it’s possible to stop using google or apple? By doing it…
You have accurately identified a major part of the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits, or don’t have the patience to learn new tools.
The other element though is time, many people don’t have the time to stop and learn. Especially when a problem like privacy is a lot less immediate than hunger or healthcare.
But the frustration among people are also growing, and that should be used/channeled to make a change.
sure, am i supposed to live without a smartphone?
So, do enlighten me, beside the fact that you are obviously addicted to the smartphone, how will your life be worse without privacy?
PS. Does anyone chase something for the sake of something else? That sounded a little silly…
surveillance capitalism already makes our lives worse. also who told you i’m using phones because i’m addicted, do you not use a phone?
PS: yes, that’s why people do things at all.
It’s different for every one, but for me it would mean, I can’t use Microsoft authenticator, so I can’t do my job anymore, as it is required to access my mail, teams, files, logging worked hours, etc etc.
I can’t use any of my bank apps anymore, I can’t use my phone anymore for paying in a store or checking in public transportation.
And many more apps that would stop working.
Tell your employer to provide you a corpo phone.
You shouldn’t be using personal device for anything related to your job imho
I do freelance work, so they would just tell me to get it myself. But I really don’t want to have multiple phones. In don’t use teams or mail on my phone anyway, only the authenticator apps (we have multiple).
That’s fair.
deleted by creator
I mostly agree with what you’re saying. But it’s really easy to make an argument for why an alternative works perfectly when you say “you don’t actually need that” every time something comes up that doesn’t work.
With a web browser and user agent spoofing, that’s basically how it works. I don’t want any Facebook/Meta apps on my phone, so I use a desktop Google Chrome rule for all Meta URLs in my browser and user the web versions. Mobile is slowly taking over, but most things have a web version.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for everything. The Quest 3 requires an Android or iOS device to set up. At least an old cell phone on a throwaway Google account works for most of these, since they don’t need to be used often.
Mainline linux on mobile is solving this problem as we speak: https://postmarketos.org/
I expect a full collapse of the Google Android behemoth about the same time we get Half Life 3.
i reaaallyyy want this project to be amazing. We need a lot more device support though for that to happen.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
I doubt they will put any pressure. EU decided to rely on GMS for their upcoming Digital ID app. While they claim they want to switch to open source alternatives of big tech services, they designed their app so that it forces EU citizens to either comply with Google’s ToS, or Apple’s.
Related discussion: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/issues/18
The app is reference implementation, not supposed to be used.
Damn we are stupid in the EU!
What do we want: digital sovereignty
When do we want it: ehrm… Well… We have some things in pipeline and it is really hard…
They know that NSA is directly spying on us and they don’t care
Furthermore, they do not seem particularly open to criticism on this subject…
if you could just have read one more update on that issue, you would’ve seen that it is moved to a discussion post now
