Over the past few years I have gone through a bunch of different apps and protocols to find the best one for “securely” communicating with my family and friends.
I ended up with the amazing XMPP protocol and my family/friends frequently use its clients to contact me.
Monal for IOS and Cheogram/Conversations/Quicksy for Android. The android app I install depends on if I can get F-Droid on their phone or not.
It’s been great with OMEMO encryption and the clients/apps available for XMPP. But sometimes I have issues introducing people to it.
Jabber (friendly name for xmpp) sounds silly to say. The clients all have weird names. And after trying the Signal mobile app it feels more focused than what anyone in the XMPP community has whipped up.
But the capabilities of XMPP makes it better.
Signal Cons (immediete)
- Centralized
- Single app
- Phone numbers
XMPP/Jabber Cons
- Picking server
- Apps are sort of less friendly
What really scares me about Signal is the centralization. Any nerd can easily host an XMPP server these days. But Signal from what I’ve heard really wants us to use their server.
If XMPP gets more attention I’m sure we can get people supporting projects and creating better apps.
I keep seeing people recommended Signal instead.
This is a bit of a tired ramble. What I wanna know is why anyone is preferring Signal over XMPP apps. I assume it might be not knowing about it. Tell me what you use to message people.
If I could get a single person to use Signal instead of Whatsapp… or even the nerds I know to use matrix instead of Discord…
There two kinds of nerds. Ones that are actually curious to try new things, and ones that conform and sully the name. It’s like tech bros vs real IT professionals.
I think the slightly more charitable division is “nerds who want to work on the tool” vs “nerds who want to use the tool to work on something else”
Some people want their discord chat to work with little effort or errors because what they’re actually interested in is some video editor, or something. And if the chat is broken, it prevents then from getting to what they really want.
I personally use XMPP, so this isn’t just to clear my own name, or anything.
Signal & Conversations (XMPP). Apparently the move from WA to Signal seems easier for most of my bubble. Can’t understand why.
You can’t understand why? Are you incapable of evaluating a user experience?
Care to explain, kind person? What’s so different between Signal and WA that a user could not find their way? Enlighten me.
For start, search xmpp on the app store and notice how the first result is a paid app that costs $8 and isn’t clear whether or not it will connect you to your friends.
Well I seached for “jabber” and found Trillian as fourth or so hit. Dunno how good it’s on Apple, but I seem to remember using a PC build somewhen with no negative memories. It’s free. Your concerns till now seem like rambling. Or general, as in: How do I make people leave WA, which is, admittedly, complicated.
edit: Double word deleted
You cant make anyone do anything, you can entice them over.
To do that they need to be simple and easy to use, what you’re describing is already more complicated than downloading signal or WhatsApp, signing up, and starting.
Was that too many words for you or what?
Because it’s nearly impossible to convince friends and family to use anything other than iMessage or “the text app” on their phone. The process you’ve described is basically akin to swimming the English Channel for the general public. I’d do it. But expecting anyone else to is just a pipe dream.
I’m already a social outcast and second class citizen for not using imessage. Asking my friends and family to install a whole separate app just to communicate with me puts me firmly in weirdo territory.
It can be tough trying to stick to good privacy and staying social. I can do it because I’ve set boundaries and have a passion for what I believe in.
If somebosy actually wants to contact me, they join a privacy friendly platform, or just take my email. Most people my generation do not use email for instant communication, and neither do I.
I’ve gotten myself to be someone people want to reach out to, almost entirely in an effort to promote/market FOSS. To be a likable, knowledgeable, and friendly resource. That’s how I managed to convert a lot of people. If I say anymore I really bet I could be identified from my post. 😆
Tough pursuits will never be a pipe dream. It just takes enough time and grit. And a little mojo.
Because the most useful communication apps are the ones that you can reach people on. XMPP’s lack of user friendly UX or long term support and commitment make it DOA for most normal people, which makes it DOA for everyone who might want to talk to a normal person.
Signal is the best intersection of genuine security and ease-of-use that I’ve ever seen. No choosing a server, no making an account. Just install the app, get a confirmation SMS, and now you can communicate with future-proof encryption and authentication right away.
For more technical people, who aren’t going to be intimidated by things like making accounts and secure passwords and choosing servers, Signal is not the best. But when I need to communicate securely with non-technical people, it’s a wonderful quick go-to solution.
With some spit and polish, I think that SimpleX could actually be very similar in that regard.
Its even simpler and more secure and privacy friendly. But the battery usage…
I have not noticed it causing a significant hit to my battery usage, but maybe I just am lucky or something.
In how many larger groups are you and which notification style do you use?
I’m in two large groups and quite a number of smaller ones.
For the most part, I have notifications muted on most things, except for a couple of very small groups that don’t get chats often.
I’m not sure exactly what notification style I’m using because I can’t remember, but I do know that I do not have Google Play Services or Google Apps of any sort.
I wouldn’t recommend simplex just yet because contacts are tied to servers. If the server you are using with a contact for down, you lose the contract
I used xmpp with otr encryption… maybe also omemo, it rings a bell. This was some years ago. But it was barely usable. Otr refused to connect at times and only unecrypted worked, messages were encrypted with wrong keys or something and history became unreadable. It worked on the desktop, but then not on the phone, only with this and that client, but not those. It was a confusing mess and I had to stop using it. If it works today, thats great.
Android’s bullshit made me quit XMPP. We needed instant messages to be instant but Android kept making that harder and harder until it was impossible.
With Signal we’re still fighting but it works a little bit better due to integration with the messenger service or whatever it’s called. Dunno, maybe XMPP can work with that as well by now.
Sigh, I want my Linux phone where I can control battery life vs availability myself.
I’m not going to push anyone who uses a secure decentralized FOSS chat already to signal, but someone who uses telegram/viber/whatsapp is easier to get gradually on signal, which is super low effort compared to the ones you mentioned.
I’ve tried. I’m happy that I got friends and family to move from SMS and WhatsApp to Signal. Some I got to move to e.g. matrix but that’s only a few.
Just my two cents since you asked. I agree with you but I don’t want perfect to be the enemy of good.
Why is your name red
I’m guessing you are using Voyager app. It’s because I’m your instance (sopuli) admin :)
It means they are your god and you should bow. (they’re an admin on your instance)
Ah… But there is another. The all mighty creator (app developer of voyager) whose name is in purple!
Ohh cool :)
I totally agree with you. But!
But Signal from what I’ve heard really wants us to use their server.
Signal doesn’t have their own servers. Instead, they rent servers from 4 companies, 3 of them is Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So Signal is relying on Big Tech and if Big Tech decides that enough is enough, they can easily shut Signal down.
THAT is what I find most terrifying. And why not use their own server? Not enough money, but they are working on it (good).
And to make it a little bit worst: Signal depends on a third party company for sending out SMS. Your phone number is therefore handled by not Signal, but by yet another company, highly likey an American company. And they are against privacy invading companies at the same time they are one. Oh, the irony.
You want sources? Sure.
- https://signal.org/legal/ (below “Information we may share”)
- https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love the idea of Signal. But there is flaws that makes Signal more privacy invading than privacy friendly.
That’s the part that makes me nervous. If I get a bunch of people locked on Signal, then they take away services or change how they run the servers, then it would be a hassle to move people to a completely new interface.
Yeah. Let say Signal goes down because of Big Tech and lets say that 50% of their users use Signal as their only messaging app. What will happen then? Hysteria!
No, XMPP all the way for me until Signal becomes decentralized with zero external connections and when they also have removed the phone number requirement.
If the worst part about Signal is having a third party send you an SMS to confirm your phone number then that’s amazing.
I’ve used XMPP since shortly after it was developed. I still use it today.
HOWEVER, while the clients are relatively good, as long as they support the extensions you want to use, I’ve found maintaining the server to be a royal headache. Between protocol and extension improvements, security updates and general server instability, I find that it’s a constant struggle to have it running and compatible with whatever client someone is using, when someone actually uses it.
Signal, on the other hand, pretty much always works, has a single client, and nobody has to worry about managing the server except Signal. So as infrastructure, it makes a lot more sense.
I use Telegram. Eek? It’s just my wife and I though. All these things I’ve heard about Telegram? Never actually seen them in mine. I have looked at groups, but I’ve only seen memes, crypto crap, and what look like scams (“post this in 5 Reddit threads to get invited to the actual group”). There’s nothing of value out there that I’ve seen. So I just use it to message my wife, because texting wasn’t good enough when we started using it (both our phones have RCS now) and I don’t use Facebook, and she doesn’t have an iPhone (so, no iMessage).
I completely reject this notion that you have to pick one and stay with it. My messaging apps include iMessage, Session, Signal, and Telegram. I also have a fork of Telegram that lets me use it from my watch (as in, it has a watch companion; official Telegram does not). I also have Discord (need it for a couple things).
I think this post is a noteworthy response. Against Silos+Signal
Noteworthy perhaps, but one is based on analysis of facts and the other is based on principle. I think they’re both valuable points of view, but they’re not actually debating the same points IMO even if they think they are.
Signal is a much better recommendation when leaving Telegram. And the OMEMO implementation concerns are something I need to consider. That unprofessional response from one of the devs is not a good look at all.
Though as a comment pointed out, control of servers is like the one main checkbox that I really need filled.
On the point about clients not being OMEMO by default or enforced. This isn’t the biggest issue for me. I’m not doing crimes, but I still wouldn’t want my saucy messages to be read by server admins or third parties. Whenever I message somebody, I confirm that they are the proper recipient and are using OMEMO. And the clients I found myself comfortable with all support PGP key use instead. (That would be Cheogram & Gajim if anyone was interested.)
This was a great read though, at least to me. It gave me some thoughts to consider.
I’m gonna look into what kind of threats these improper dependency versions and such might pose. Hopefully by now most of these issues have been resolved.
The biggest thing is getting people into the loop of “secure apps” before they really need it.
I’ll be honest, most of the crypto/security jargon flies straight over my head, but Tim Henkes’ reply at the end, for fucks’ sake man. I don’t suppose xmpp has an alternative encryption to use instead of omemo?
Pretty much any encryption you can send over text. My favorite clients support PGP instead. But it’s up to the clients to implement envryption and not really the protocol I guess.
Most people don’t understand what is instance and do not want to do 3 step registration if they can do 2 step registration on Signal. Also, if I understand correctly, xmpp protocol and client didn’t support stickers and Signal added that feature and gifs? Not sure
Many people will tell you you have to sacrifice your principles because interface, because “normies” (which is an elitist way of telling you that non-elitist people are idiots…), etc. I say: stick to your dreams!
It’s not elitist, it’s realist. They don’t want to install Signal just as much as I don’t want to install Facebook messenger.
Yes you can nag people but it will more often than not have the same effect as when people try to convince me to install Facebook messenger.
I find this resistance weird. (From the “normies”, not the Signal users)
Most of them have phones filled with all sorts of crap that they download willy nilly, yet they only seem to put the walls up for Signal.
speaking of “normies” is elitist, because the term is used usually people privileged/experienced with knowledge about technology to describe people who don’t have this privilege/experience. It is implying that there would be a class of (sub-)humans who are not capable of taking the same path as the person who employs this term. I stand by the term “elitist”. In a world of diverse people, life-paths and needs, in my own experience everybody is capable of understanding the political reasons to use a piece of software over another one (because one company sucks, because their model of centralization is detrimental to freedom, because they got shady funding, because they pretend to be something else but bar free software authors to modify their software, because they’re from the USA, etc.). Everyone has their own way of understanding these things. Everyone has some arguments that will resonate better than others. Pretty much the same way you probably decided to not install Facebook messenger. Well the good news is: everybody is capable of understanding these things. It may take time and effort, it may make elitist people realize it is not as easy as they first thought it would be, and require to fail and try again. It requires efforts and a humble approach as to listen to these people and take them where they are and walk a bit along the way with them.
My personal experience is that most people are capable of understanding such things. It may take time, but everyone is capable.
I also saw tons of elitist tech-enthusiasts and other tech-savvies “bros” not even addressing who they call “normies” out of pure lazyness, to avoid to speak outside of their own comfort zone and question their own status, and to avoid sharing their elitist knowledge.
-> “‘normies’ won’t do that” = “i am too lazy to engage meaningfully with people who do not know the same things as i know.”
That’s a major part of the problem. Elitist feedback loop…
First of all normie not an insult or a derogatory term. The term “normies” is often used in many niche communities to refer to someone outside the community. It has nothing to do with being smart, privileged or experienced. It means more like “the average user” or “the typical person”. Example: a person in the boardgaming community may refer to you as a normie, not because you’re dumb but because you don’t play hobby boardgames (check out Brass: Birmingham, what a game).
The problem isn’t about comprehending the problem, most people understand that Facebook is selling their data. They just don’t care. They would rather have their data sold than to have the trouble to move to yet another communication app. WhatsApp is working just fine, Facebook is sparking joy. They don’t care.
“Normies won’t do X” is a perfectly acceptable way to express that the hurdles are too high for the average user. The average user wants a sleek UI, a user friendly experience and most of all they want to be in the place everyone is already at. The average Joe doesn’t want to be the first guy on Simple X, they actually really want the hassle free platform everyone is already at.
Also, the next great communication app is constantly changing. It used to be IRC, ICQ, MSN Messenger, Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, Instagram, Telegram, Signal, Matrix, Simple X, Session. I’m sorry to say that the average person is not willing to migrate that often. Facebook works, their friends are already there, they stick to it. This isn’t elitism, it’s just stating what I see.
Normies isn’t an elitist term it is a counter culture term for people outside the norm to refer to the general opinion. It is the not like us statement or the fact that there is experience that one would not understand fully unless they are in a subset group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normie_(slang)
was first used in its original meaning of “ordinary, normal” in English in the 1950s.[6] According to Merriam-Webster, the term “normie” appeared in the late 1980s in the United States. It was used ironically by people with disabilities in reference to the rest of the population.[2] In the late 1990s, the term was used in Alcoholics Anonymous literature to refer to individuals who were not addicted to any substances.[7]
Since the early 2000s it has been spreading on the Internet.[2][4] In the Russian-language sphere, popularization was promoted by the use of the imageboard Dvach, whose users consider themselves representatives of informal culture, which is expressed in controversial publications, non-standard political views, black humor, involvement in various subcultures.[8]
Removed by mod
It does suck if you do a lot of filesharing, since files only stay in the servers for 2 days
We should definetly not make it a habit to store files for long on volunteer servers. :(
Speaking of wacky hole in the wall messagers!
Its tectonically a network stack but theres a few apps, to use it. And MAAAN is it decentralized
